It is a great fortune to see the Queen or king. And a greater one to be admitted to the king’s court.
A simple glimpse into the Self is the beginning of the path and not the end. A sip of water does not fulfill your thirst.
There is no higher dissolution than the complete dissolution of the me-impressions … vasanas.
Apply yourself by maintaining the revelation of the Self as your priority. Your love for truth and your dedication to the love for truth will open all doors. Once you are in the king’s castle, there is no end to the celebratory revelation of the Self.
Es una gran fortuna poder ver la reina o el rey. Y una mas grande aun ser admitido en la corte del rey.
Un simple vislumbre en el Ser es el principio de la senda y no el final. Un sorbo de agua no sacia tu sed.
No hay una mas alta disolucion que la completa disolucion de las impresiones del yo….vasanas.
Aplicate manteniendo la revelacion del Ser como tu prioridad. Tu amor por la verdad y tu dedicacion al amor por la verdad abrira todas las puertas. Una vez que estes en el castillo del rey, no hay final para la celebracion de la revelacion del Ser.
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Translation by Gonzalo Fernandez
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Chris: Looking the other way into the open space of the Self, reversing attention to the timeless awareness of You. Is just the start of Self realization. A repeated recognition of your own self as this eternal aware space will bring about the spontaneous release of all phenomena. Vasanas don’t exist, me-impressions don’t exist. They are spontaneously and presently released as your very own reality-display, and leave no trace like the flight path of a bird in the sky.
First and foremost, recognize yourself as the one and only light of awareness without bounds. The very same awareness that sees from all eyes. This clear light that sees from all eyes is indestructible and pure and is always this way, you are always eternal clear light. See this once with a simple in-seeing or insight, and then again, and start to recognise what it means, how you remain clear and un-affected by all formations of this formless creative light.
Magdi: Yes, the recognition of the Open borderless space of aware presence will stabilize as long as ones interest does not get hijacked.
Clarity about what one loves and living according to love for truth is the path to the stable recognition of the Self.
Chris: Very true, on one level. But after the initial insight, if the space of purity is recognized as what you are, then there is no way to be ‘hijacked’. No-thing can’t get hijacked. This is the crucial point. No-one can get sucked into anything. The thing that’s getting pulled in is just an appearance of the no-thing. A thought. You see, a me-story can easily perpetuate itself by thinking its being pulled into a story, funny uh.
“I am pulled out aware presence” Just a thought appearance of pure presence.
If anyone is planning on eventually being free of me-thoughts and emotions then ‘oops’…..think again. You already are. The perpetuation of seeking is exactly that! You are already free from all.
Chris: In other words, me-thoughts will continue along with emotions and everything else. But you just wont be troubled by them…..pretty much like it is now really. wink emoticon Just don’t be trapped in seeking a pure state when the purity of clear being is already staring as your edgeless gaze.
Magdi: That is not my experience.
After an initial insight whereby the space of purity (the Self) is recognized, there is a long journey that follows.
Although one could say that being pulled into reactivity and getting entangled in the negative emotions, is just thought and bodily sensations, this does not change the fact that it is a very unhappy thought/sensation and is not the stable revelation and establishment of/as the Self.
To say that the me-thought and me-feeling continues without troubling or causing any unhappiness is speaking from both sides of the mouth.
I-thought (identification) and me-feelings refer to a sense of limitations and contraction that is unhappy.
It is the absence of I-thoughts (I as a limited person) and the absence of the me-feelings that reveals the bliss of the Self (causeless peace and happiness).
The revelation of the Self is the end of seeking.
Seeking is fueled by the me illusion. But until seeking ends, seeking continues and justly so.
Chris: Hmm. I kinda figured you would say something like that. So the me is still there going in and out of sad and happy states. Pulled back and forth from peace and noise. What I am saying to you is that the space of peace thats already what you are NEVER gets pulled anywhere. Which is what you’re also saying. Repeated recognition of the FACT that you never get pulled in and out might reveal the FACT that you never get pulled in and out. Space cannot be tugged anywhere and is never limited.
Magdi Badawy Absolutely.
The roller coaster ride is at the mind level, at the relative level and not at the noumenal, not at the absolute level of reality and truth.
Chris: The I-thought and me-feelings are the dynamic display of the Self. The Unified Self displays itself as I AM a separate self. Knowing you are the unified clear Self will not stop your I-thoughts, at least not as long as that body is alive. Dissolve into a rainbow.
Magdi: The complete death of the separate self impression is possible before the body dies.
that is referred to as the Great death.
The little death si the death of the body.
The I-thought (meaning I am a mortal body mind, I am a person) dissolves in the Self, not to re-emerge,
Chris: I die daily.
Complete death of the separate self is there when you’re not thinking. and back when you have the I-thought. Its hilarious. However, I now see the I-thought as the eye of awareness. There is no requirement to kill that and it wouldn’t be possible even if you could. You are always going to have the I-thought. But it doesn’t matter because you’re not a thought.
Magdi: The I-thought is a dream identification, a mistaken identification that ends like the belief in Santa ends when you see the old man putting on the fake white beard and the red coat.
To say that the I-thought does not end is a limiting statement.
I recommend being open to other possibilities.
Chris: To think this ‘Great death’ is something that can happen later in time is a delusion. Its always been my point. It cannot and will not die because it doesnt exist as anything other than a fleeting thought.
Chris: Haha, trust me, I know. The great death as already occurred, for everyone. Its just most people dont care to even conteplate it. A lot of people upon realisation just say ‘yeah whatever so what’ and carry on exactly as they were. Seems this hyper-pure space likes to dream.
Chris: How do you even know people want this realisation, because most seekers i’ve come across, its the last thing they want or need. I mean, who wants to be mentally decimated in such a way and realise they are no-thing. Free-falling into reality without the me-story is not for the faint of heart.
Magdi: I am talking about the stabilization of the great death.
What is the point of the revelation of the Self while one remains in the same old happy/unhappy/happy/unhappy…. roller coaster ride of the identification?
Chris: Well, were back to the same point. The happy/unhappy/happy/unhappy roller coaster is fleeting phenomena. Whilst the Pure Self remains timelessly clear and unaffected. THAT. What’s looking. Already completely stable.
Magdi: I know. But what is the point of realizing the Self while remaining as the self (fleeting me-identity) … if this fleeting me-identity keeps refreshing itself, keeps maintaining itself?
Chris: The point is that when you’ve realised the Self, it doesnt matter what appears. And trust me, things are going to appear. They just don’t have the same effect anymore. You already know this. But what I am saying is, its already that way. You can repeatedly recognise that its already this way if you want, and you can call it stabilization if you want. But its already that way.
Magdi: The realization of the Self brings an end to unhappiness (the I-identification).
Until then, if the me-impression (separate self) continues to arise, saying it does’t matter reminds me of the ostrich that buries its head in the sand to avoid getting shot by the hunter.
Magdi: It is already that way is an academic statement.
What matters is that it is that way moment by moment without the clouds of me-identifivation (ignorance).
Chris: Nah. The Self is always pure and unaffected. Regardless of any type of appearance. Chop my arms and legs off if you want, I might scream in agony, but I assure you, The Self will be self evident and unaffected.
Magdi: Of course, the Self is beyond the world, body mind.
But the realization and establishment as the Self brings an end to suffering.
Chris: What you appear to be talking about is some type of complete mental dissolution, which i assure you does not occur. The body-mind cannot be just a body. The body needs the mind. And with the mind comes thoughts, and with thoughts comes I AM. What that I is, depends on whether or not you know yourself as the unified field of timeless awareness.
An end to psychological suffering yes, the after thought type of suffering. But not an end to suffering, you’re going to suffer pains and discomfort till you say goodbye to the body. You just wont create the extra psychological suffering about it.
Chris: Try a visit to the dentist without sedative…..haha see if the ‘me’ comes back then lol The me-impression is God!!…in disguise tongue emoticon Not two things are happening. And without suffering, you would not know what suffer-less was.
Magdi: The body is wired to respond to pain. That is how the body safeguards itself (such as from a burning fire). That is a mechanistic process.
This does not imply a separate me, a separate consciousness.
Chris: Precisely. And neither does a thought.
Magdi: Correct. A thought is neutral. So is a boldly sensation.
But identification with a mortal body mind, with a limited consciousness is an unhappy illusion. Yes, a nightmare is only thought. But who wants it? Who enjoys it?
Chris: I AM IN PAIN AND SUFFERING doesn’t imply a separate self either. There’s only one Self.
So what if a nightmare appears? No-one chose it, it doesn’t affect anyone. It disappears without a trace like a line drawn in water.
Chris: I don’t care what dreams appear, they are just an appearance. If you want a permanent heavenly bliss then you’ll have to wait until the body-mind dissolves into space.
Magdi: Well, that settles it. You are happy with nightmares as you are not affected by them (it seems unhappy night or waking dreams do not matter to you)…. What more can I say? I recognize your zeal and your enthusiasm. There is no waiting.
The body has already dissolved into space..
1. Pain is to the body mind. Suffering is to the me-person.
That is an important distinction that requires closer scrutiny.
2. True, a nightmare disappears without a trace. But I rather enjoy sweet dreams. Don’t you?
1. Even the most respected gurus of antiquity said pain and suffering dont disappear after awakening. I think is even symbolized in christianity by jesus on the cross.
2. YEP! Already.
Magdi: Pain does not as it is to the body.
Sufreing does as it is to the imaginary separate self.
Chris: Haha……Go and hit yourself over the head with an hammer, and see if anyone suffers wink emoticon If it doesn’t, get a bigger hammer. Psychological suffering would be the continuation of a story about a me thats suffering. Its easy to talk about a sufferless space of presence when youre not in pain. The ego was born as safety mechanism for survival and when pain happens the ego happens, if only breifly, it hurts a someone.
I think you are imagining something that doesn’t ever occur. The complete death of a seperate self in the head/thoughts is a delusion, as there never was one to begin with. Theres only one self and it appears as I AM. And when pain happens that I AM happens. I AM IN PAIN. Its still the same I of awareness and not a seperate self story. There isnt a separate I.
Magdi: It would be stupid to hit myself over the head with a hammer.
It would be stupid for me to suffer if I have a toothache.
The best I could do is go to the dentist.
And if the tooth is not salvageable, it would be stupid to suffer over the tooth.
he body is dying each day.
It is stupid to attach to a dying object while I know myself as the objectless Self.
On the other hand, as long as I do not know myself as the objectless universal Self, there is no choice but to be stupid.
You are confusing the self-preservation intelligence of a body mind with the ego.
The ego is unnecessary the me-identification.
Ted: I think that the possibilities after realization form a very wide spectrum. There may or may not be residual vasanas. Risidual vasanas may distract attention from the Self or not. The mind and body continue perhaps transparently or perhaps opaquely, or any variation or alternation.
If one habitually rests in Pure Awareness, thoughts and perceptions don’t mean very much. But it is possible to have a deep realization and still have vasanas strong enough to distract.
Realization has been often compared to an elephant running through a grass shack. The shack may be totally demolished. Nothing left but a few straws blowing in the wind, or there may be a corner, a wall and a portion of the roof remaining.
One problem is the word “manonasa,” used often by Ramana and usually literally translated as “death of the mind.” “A philosophical and spiritual deconstruction of the mind,” might be a better translation. The flow of thoughts and perceptions that are considered “mind” continue. The ability of the risidual habit patterns of thought and activity to distract from the Self can and obviously do vary widely.
And obviously wise, sincere and thoughtful people may honestly disagree on the matter.
Magdi: In pure awareness, thoughts and perceptions are the Self and their celebratory, contemplative or creative aspects manifest and are recognized.
Distraction refers to identification.
A truth lover responds to such distractions with their renewed contemplation and dedication to truth.
Indeed in very few cases the vasanic process has to a large extent been completed prior to the final revelation and in such cases the post awakening vasanic process is meager.
Once the Self is fully established one is established in causeless peace and happiness, that does not come and go. Mind flow continues but ignorant identification ends.
Chris: Indeed. In the midst of pain and suffering, there is no pain and suffering. In ignorance, there is no ignorance. In the midst of troubling thoughts and emotions there is the clear light of pure awareness shining. All is subsumed in the Light.
Magdi: Indeed, the moonlight is but an indirect pointer to the sunlight.