Question: I heard someone saying: ‘Things are simply happening. They are happening to nobody. And that there is nothing to do.’
Can you comment on this?
Reply: I, consciousness, am not ‘nobody’ nor am I ‘somebody’.
Consciousness, what I am, is not defined by the mind. The mind arises in consciousness and is made out of the source out of which it arises. Thus, the mind is not the appropriate vehicle to know the Self.
‘Nobody’, as a thought, or as a sensation or as a feeling, or as a belief, appears to me. Me, being consciousness.
Consciousness does not appear as ‘nobody’. One could say that consciousness, does not appear, and yet, it is the substance of all phenomenal appearances, the substance of what the mind refers to as everybody and everything.
‘Somebody’ appears to me (consciousness). This appearance takes the shape of an image, a thought, a belief, a bodily sensation, a memory, etc.
I (consciousness), without appearing, am THAT to which both ‘nobody’ or ‘somebody’ appear.
As long as there are things happening, there remains a trace of duality. Things happening, on their own or not, is still at the mind level.
For the Self, all is the Self.
For the mind, things are happening on their own or out of a personal will. Either way, it is mind stuff.
Some folks reach the neti-neti interim state and mistake it to be the final realization, and start teaching.
They teach the ‘no-one’ interim teaching and cannot teach the ultimate teaching that reveals the splendor of the Self.
In time, they resume their journey as all rivers and streams end at the ocean.
Obviously there is a reality to our experience and it is not ‘no-one’. The reality of consciousness cannot be denied. It is our primary experience and nihilism fails to express it.
In ignorance we believe consciousness to be personal. In wisdom, it is realized that I am universal consciousness conceiving, creating and perceiving the world, body mind out of myself.
That is the non-dual realization and it is not sufficient to have a conceptual understanding.
Hope this clarifies your question.
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G.R. : By the way, it is also believed to be said by Buddha: “deeds and actions happen but there is no doer behind them”.
Reply: Indeed, there is no separate doer. But the teaching is not a ‘no-one’ teaching.
The Buddha’s teaching was about the end of suffering. Referring to the realization of the Self as the realization of ‘no-oneness’ is only a partial understanding and is not the complete revelation of the glory of the Self.
C.A. : ‘No one’ really only means that there isn’t any entity present. It doesn’t mean that there is some remaining entity there called ‘no-one’. It only is meant to imply the absence of the ‘personal me’ – a false self who is only self-identified with some state, or some imaginary object. Without a self-identified entity, there is only pure Being, with no adjuncts – with no imaginary false self, because ‘no one’ (no entity) can exist there.
W.P. : Is this embodiment of consciousness (unmanifested) a part of Self-realization (awakening process)?
Reply: The ‘no-one’ stage is the interim stage where we realize we are consciousness and not a personal someone. As the contemplation continues, the realization is that I, consciousness, am everyone and everything. This realization that only consciousness is real, only the Self is real is the ‘return’ from no-oneness to Allness, everythingness, wholeness. The experience of this ‘return’ is causeless and eternal peace and happiness with a deepening contemplation and celebration of Being. The endpoint is peace and happiness.
W.P : Tank you for the clarification.
C.A. : Consciousness manifests as Being, and Bliss/Love/Happiness – Sat/Chit/Ananda. It is felt as as the wordless I Am.
Reply: Wordless I Am … not as ‘no-one’ but as the full emptiness of All-ness and everything-ness, where everyone and everything is mySelf. Non-dual oneness. The words point to the experience. The vibrant stillness. The experience of peace, equanimity, joy and happiness. Ananda.
C.A. : There is no false entity (no ‘no one’) in Sat/Chit/Ananda.
… It is pure entity-less Being – knowing itself to exist, and to be Happy. In pure experiencing, there is no entity present, and therefore no experiencer there to experience anything. Only afterwards can an entity appear to say it has had the experience, and then claim it as its own.
Reply: The Self knowing itSelf and recognizing itSelf is a glorious non-event. Yes, it can be called a non-experience as we usually refer to experience in a dualistic way. But it is important to point out that the Self knowing itSelf is not a blank state. It is a glorious non-state. Of course, all words fall short when it comes to speaking of this non-experience that is the stabilization of Self-realization.
C.A.: The Oneness where there exists an entity who claims it is One with everything, is still duality, and is often mistaken for Onenesss. Oneness is when no sense of a separate self is left over. It is really more like non-separation, and finding no personal sense of self there to claim that it is now one with everything. It’s the same problem of identification with a body/mind identity, who is having various kinds of experiences, and then adding them to itself.
W.P. : There isn’t anyone to claim anything. Rather, it seems to be a spontaneous integration of a non-experience of a non-entity with Self. It sounds strange and doesn’t make conceptual sense.
C.A.: Yes, just self-less Spontaneity. It is the doer that does all … No real entity to claim anything. That’s really only thought anyway. It’s more like all these conflicting phenomenal aspects just fall away, rather than all these phenomenal things necessarily integrating them self in some kind of harmonious way. It could happen? This is more like a recognition outside of the field of phenomenal manifestation. It is more like IT is already complete and perfect – even regardless of the phenomenal appearance.
Reply: Phenomenal appearance arises out of the Self. Its substance is the Self. That is why this realization is referred to as non-duality.
G.R. : Magdi, you said: “Indeed, there is no separate doer. But the teaching is not a ‘no-one’ teaching.The Buddha’s teaching was about the end of suffering.”
Parts of the sentence before and after the “but” are mutually exclusive. Buddha’s teaching about the end of suffering spoke about the end of any personal entity, of any “I am”. You seem to agree that there is no separate doer first and then go on refuting yourself right away by saying it is not a “no-one” teaching.
Well…it is exactly that.
Reply: The ‘no one’ is an important understanding. But it is not the final revelation.
It is the witnessing state. That is the main point I am making.
G.R. : If there is no one, there will be no one to witness.
V.S. : Magdi could you Please explain a bit more about the “neti-neti interim state?
Reply: The neti neti interim state is the realization that I am not a person, that I am not a mortal body mind. It is the realization that I am the witnessing consciousness. At this stage, there is a witnessing of the world, body mind from a position of being consciousness. Commonly, there is an attachment that follows. It is the attachment to being ‘no one’ and the world, body mind is still perceived dualistically. The resulting understanding is that I am ‘no one’ and things are just as they are. Many people mistake this interim stage to be the final realization. Such a state does not reveal the freedom, peace and happiness of the Self. Truth, peace and happiness are revealed upon the realization that consciousness is universal. The revelation that the substance of the phenomenal world, body mind is the reality of consciousness. It is a non dual revelation. G.R. There is ‘no one’ is the witnessing state. Consciousness is still perceived as personal and the perfume of the Self has not been revealed. There is a subtle identification as ‘no one.’
F.R. : “In ignorance we believe consciousness to be personal. In wisdom, it is realized that I am universal consciousness conceiving, creating and perceiving the world, body mind out of myself.”
C.A. : ‘Neti, neti’ is a practice that is done by the personally identified self, which has become habituated in the belief that it is a real entity. This practice is one of negating everything that is perceived or conceived to be a valid identification for the reality of its mistaken existence as a separate self. It is the practice of a method used for eradicating any identified supports normally given to the false self, through which it finds continuity.
“… You are nothing you can perceive or conceive …” (Nisargadatta).
The non-identification with any perception or any conception, means the absence of a personal identity, and the abiding as a ‘non-entity’, and instead, only as the pure Being of the wordless I Am – free of any adjuncts whatsoever. Spontaneity then becomes the only ‘doer’, as the assumed ‘entity-ness’ of a personal ‘me’ dissolves in pure Being.
… “Witnessing is pure Being”.
The sense I Am – that ‘I exist’, coming from the felt sense of pure Being in the body, goes inward, and spreads out from the Heart Center, to encompass the totality and the Being of all manifested Consciousness.
… “I Am That I Am”.
Being is seen and known directly only by Awareness, and It is through this adjunct-less ‘I Am portal’ that pure Being rarefies itself as Awareness. Here, all personal identifications – having been dissolved in pure Being, leaves only Being-ness, which is all along – at every point, is seen and known by Awareness alone. When Awareness turns to see itself, then that is the Absolute, because Awareness cannot be objectified … The Absolute is beyond both Being and non-being – where no ‘thing’ actually is. Nothing. Yet, IT is the Source of all.
G.R. : Magdi, I don’t think there are some interim states. It sounds more like a construct of the mind to me. How can there be interim states in oneness? What will happen to you when all your “personal” perception disappears?
W.P. : Magdi is referring to the process of awakening over time. What he is pointing towards is not a perception, is not a construct of the mind, rather it is an intuitive knowing, an apperception of a spontaneous non-experience by a non-entity.
A.R. : Is there a process of awakening really? What is there to be awakened? Is this something appearing in the story of ME, something Me needs to achieve? Don’t know ???
Reply: There are many traps along the way from complete identification with the mortality of the body mind to the realization of the Self.
You ask: What is there to awaken?
Reply: Awakening refers to the end of the sense of separation and the revelation of our true nature as causeless peace and happiness. There is no ‘thing’ that awakens. The impression of ‘something needing to awaken’ still refers to the dualistic mind.
You also ask: Is awakening something appearing in the story of ME? Something ME needs to achieve?
Reply: There is no separate ME. There is only the universal Self, the I-AM.
Awakening appears as peace and happiness in the absence of a me.
Although the separate self is an illusion, be careful not to throw the baby with the bath water.
A.R. : Laughing here. Haha! Universal self, what is that? And how you know that? You are just having fun with concepts. LoL
Can anything be known , REALLY !!! All knowing is intellectual, thought activity, have fun with that !!!
Reply: The concept ‘universal Self’ refers to the experience of wholeness, Oneness … that knows no other and that bypasses the mind. From the mind’s perspective, it is a concept.
Only the experience of the Self reveals it.
To a certain extent, the mind must be willing to be cajoled in order to be led to the edge of the mind. Then, it has to fall down the cliff…
You ask: Can anything be known?
Reply: There is mind and there is consciousness. What the mind knows is limited mind stuff and is subject to change and to conditions. True knowing is consciousness knowing itself: The realization of the Self.
A,R. : Hi Magdi , nice meeting you , you are cool !! All that A.R. says is a lie. My apologist to you. I don’t know anything. LOL
Reply: You are not A.R.
You are the reality of consciousness…. No distinctions at the core.
A.R. : Thank you. Lol
Reply: It is the same light of consciousness that appears as Magdi and as A.R.
A.R. : Yes you are right , here is just this , yet this can not be capture with words because it is unknown , The ME trays to intellectualize this , Seemingly. That is part of the fun !!
Reply: I know… It is such a deep conditioning to go into the mind and to follow this trail…
It is fun in a way, but in the end, the mind does not deliver peace and happiness. It perpetuates the confusion. At least that is my experience with it.
G.R. : Who said enlightenment has to be always peaceful and blissful? Just because mind likes such states?…
A.R. : Well , that is how the story appears.
Reply: That is the experience G.R. To be more correct, that is the non-experience: It is not a dualistic perceiver/perceived experience. It is the dissolving of separation and it does not arise again. It is uninterrupted peace. There is a period post enlightenment, where the peace and happiness waivers. But, in time it stabilizes. It stabilizes since we are no longer nourishing the separate self. Like when we stop watering a plant, in time it ceases to grow.
It is not a me story. The me stories precede that and the me story keeps you on the roller coaster. Me happy one day, unhappy the next. It is the end of the me stories.